Johnny Depps delirious Dark Shadows

Bobcat Goldthwait is something like the id underbelly of Michael Moore, with every pretense of journalistic objectivity and reasonableness stripped away. While Moore has a background as a reporter and editor, Goldthwait has always been an entertainer, who began doing stand-up comedy as a teenager in the late 1970s. Both guys present as rumpled, middle-aged heartland Americans with blue-collar roots Goldthwait is from Syracuse, N.Y., where his dad was a sheet-metal worker who are angry about the debasement of political life and public dialogue in their beloved country.

But I feel pretty confident that even Moore would not make a movie about a laid-off worker who hits the road with a runaway teenage girl and goes on a killing spree aimed at right-wing talk-show hosts, obnoxious reality-TV subjects and people who talk on the phone in movie theaters. God Bless America is Goldthwaits fourth film as a writer-director Im going clear back to Shakes the Clown in 1991, often described as the Citizen Kane of alcoholic-clown movies and its definitely his most coherent and most consistently hilarious, perhaps because its canvas is so large and the world it depicts so insane. It plays a little like Network mixed with Mike Judges Idiocracy mixed with Natural Born Killers, and in the very first scene its main character, the depressed, divorced and soon-to-be unemployed Frank (Joel Murray), does something completely unforgivable.

That first scene turns out to be a dream sequence, thankfully, but its not like the stuff Frank will actually do in the waking world God Bless America is so much better. After losing his job and getting some really bad medical news, Frank decides to seek violent retribution against the evil, stupidity and cruelty he sees streaming out of the TV every day. (He could, after all, just turn it off instead; I think thats part of Goldthwaits point.) While hunting down an ultra-spoil! ed South ern teenager and her stupid-rich parents the subjects of an especially insulting reality show he meets Roxy (the wonderful Tara Lynne Barr), a precocious high-school girl who says shes fleeing an abusive home life and whose appetite for destruction beggars his own. Roxys delighted to waste vapid cheerleaders and reactionary creeps, but wants to up the ante: People who high-five! People who say things are punk rock! Adult women who call their breasts girls! Diablo Cody (described herein as the only stripper with too much self-esteem)!

Yeah, OK, thats all pretty funny. But what about 50-year-old guys who go on cross-country road trips with cute underage girls, without asking themselves too many hard questions? Somewhat less funny, right? On one level, God Bless America is grossly inflated, over-the-top satire, but on another, it possesses its own kind of moral subtlety. Goldthwait doesnt so much want us to root for Frank and Roxy without question, or to excuse actions that cant be excused. Rather, he wants us to acknowledge that the idiotic and insulting state of public discourse in our country has made us all a little crazy. And this critique isnt coming from some avant-garde outsider or media-studies professor, by the way. Goldthwait is a lifelong showbiz professional, who spent four years as the principal director of his friend Jimmy Kimmels late-night talk show.

I met Goldthwait last week in his Manhattan hotel room, where he was joined by Joel Murray, who plays ultra-violent anti-cruelty crusader Frank in God Bless America. You may know Murray from his recurring role as Freddy Rumsen on Mad Men, or before that for extended runs in Still Standing and Dharma & Greg.

So another work of subtle and delicate social satire from the mind of Bobcat Goldthwait.

Bobcat Goldthwait: Well, in these not very subtle times, this is whats called for.

Youre just about the right age to have seen Network, growing up, and I couldnt help thinking! theres a lot of that movie in here.

Oh, I actually went back and watched it when I was writing the movie. You know, this movies influences are like Bonnie and Clyde and Network, a movie I love. I went back to movies where obviously comparisons were going to be drawn and watched those too. You know, like Falling Down. Which, by the way, is a terrible movie.

Yes, absolutely terrible.

Some people absolutely love it. Im like, I dont know. I could never get into the movie. When Michael Douglas finally kills somebody, they make the guy a closet Nazi. So you dont have to feel bad, you know Michael Douglas character isnt a bad guy. And he really just wants to get home. Its also a very racist movie.

I mean, I didnt want this to be a vigilante movie where everybody that Frank kills not only do they talk in the movie theater, but they also happen to be Nazis or they kill a puppy in the parking lot. Because it isnt OK to shoot people that text in the movie theater! I was just trying to make it clear to people that text in the movie theater that theres a lot of people that really dont like them. Its funny with some of the comments Ive gotten: Oh so what? Im not supposed to be using my phone in the movie theater? I cant even comprehend that someone might be upset by that.

Heres one scene I found upsetting and challenging. When Frank kills the sleazy contractor dude who has challenged him about his relationship with the girl, I think that gets at something very essential in the movie. Because that guy hasnt actually done anything except make a disturbing comment. Its like hes spoken a dangerous version of the truth, and Frank doesnt want to hear it.

Joel Murray: Its a moment in the film where I realize I brought this girl along for the ride and that was a complete lie. I was doing a thing in the movie about the pain in my head when it was relieved by killing, suddenly the pain would go away. In that scene, Im slamming that stee! ring whe el in that Camaro as hard as I can, and the pain in my head was really bad. Because suddenly everything was wrong, and I had to kill someone right about then.

B.G.: To me, whats happened is that guy represents Frank. You know, Frank is flawed because hes a human being. He has these really strict ideas about how people should live and then he cant live up to them. Hes not killing that guy because that guys a scumbag. Hes killing that guy because he represents a side of himself he did not expect to encounter. Hes been fooling himself: Yeah, I could go home more often, I could have a life to go home to.

J.M.: Yeah, maybe we really can move to France and get some goats! Its pretty nice dancing with you and touching you and [growls]

Its like for the whole movie Frank has been aware of the danger of being around this teenage girl, and trying to reassure himself that hes not that kind of guy.

B.G.: That hes not a creep. You know, for the first two-thirds of the movie the girl just supplies Joels character with this family he doesnt have. And then the wheels fall off.

Bobcat, theres a lot of material in this movie that feels somewhat like your comedy routines, so Im tempted to see a lot of it as the author speaking through the characters. Is that misleading?

You know, its funny, and I havent said this in any other interview or anything. But Ive seen reviews where they say, Its clearly Bobcat saying this and that. But Im like well, Bobcat has access to a medium where he gets to say everything he wants and rant for an hour on Showtime. So its a character. Clearly I agree with about 90 percent of the things Frank says, but its not a showcase for me. I wanted to make a movie that explores our appetite for distractions. Like I said, I do agree with almost everything Frank says, outside of killing people. But I didnt feel like as a human being I was being ignored and I needed to make a movie becau! se I was pissed off no one was listening to me.

Well, one of the things Frank is pissed off about or youre pissed off about, I guess is the cruelty and sadism we see in popular media, reality shows and talk TV. Frank talks about how thats a symptom of a dying empire. But do you think that cruelty is specific to the media, or is it a larger social phenomenon?

Its our appetite for the cruelty. I didnt want to make a movie that blamed the media because I thought that was really lazy. Both the right and the left blame the media constantly. Its either bashing Fox News or bashing the lamestream media. As soon as I see a post or comment where someone uses the word Hollyweird or elitist I go, oh, your opinions are already formed for you. You dont make your own ideas. Im not interested in what you have to say. But I didnt want to make a movie that blamed the media because thats too easy. I didnt want to kill the messenger. I think the media takes a beating. You know those guys who are trying to give you the truth? We hate them. [Laughter.]

Im talking about the publics willingness to be spoon-fed their opinion and not even discuss the different sides. Just: This is my team, I root for this news. This is what I think. Im jumping off the cliff. I like this radio personality because theyll make all my decisions for me and I dont have to. Im going to sit around for hours talking about Charlie Sheen instead of my own life.

This isnt in your movie, but Ive been working in the media for 25 years, and while watching this I couldnt help thinking about all the tools we have now and the changes they have wrought. It used to be that TV had the Nielsen ratings and the newspapers had circulation numbers. You did marketing surveys or whatever, but that was about it. These days we can tell precisely what people are watching or reading at any given moment. If I publish an article on our site, I can find out, in real time, exactly how many people are looking at it.

So later ! on, edit orial policies wow, I didnt even think about that will be dictated by that.

Sure. Back when I worked at an old-school alternative newspaper, we could decide to run an article about some avant-garde dance performance that nobody else was interested in, just because we thought it was cool and because it was the sort of thing we were supposed to cover.

And you were forcing people to expose themselves to it. My wife is younger than myself shes not Roxies age, shes actually age-appropriate. Which is, whatever, new. [Laughter.] But, you know, newspapers seem weird to her: Why would you hold those dirty things? Well, because before I rush to the entertainment section, I have: Oh, what are we doing in Syria? On the Web you just click to your site and just keep clicking, like a mouse who has something that stimulates his pleasure zone. I think its very cocainey.

Well, that depiction of the workplace in your movie, where people only talk about what they saw last night on TV or what they just heard on the drive-time radio shows. Its obviously exaggerated for effect, but there might be a kernel of truth there. And its very much like mice responding to stimulus.

My exposure to that world is when I go to comedy clubs and do the morning shows and Im up against this talking thats all about non-information. Now, I dont think everything should be the heavies, but very little of it is about our own selves. Id be more interested if someone tells me something about themselves, versus posting something about their political opinions or whatever. Its like, Im about to say that Im an atheist who owns a gun and is a vegetarian is he still going to like me? Instead I go: Theyre going to take our guns away!

I wanted to talk about the violence in the movie. Theres a fair amount of it! Lets just say that. And one of the things about contemporary society is that theres all this cruel and angry discourse youre talking about, and theres a national fixation on c! rime and violence, yet were living in a time of relatively low violence. The three of us can all remember the 70s, when crime rates were double or triple what they are today.

B.G.: Yeah, maybe people are getting it out? I think its like, most people dont even know or feel that, because were just constantly told how violent the world is.

J.M.: And how you cant even let your kids walk to the corner. What are you thinking? And its less dangerous than it was in the 70s.

B.G.: We must be comfortable in fear. It must be rewarding for some reason that we want to live in it so much. What Im learning is that there are a lot of extreme right-wing websites that are really going after me. But what I realize now is that it really doesnt matter. Its so funny how little it affects my life in any way at all. Theyre saying Im the worst thing ever.

Because of your movie?

Yeah. I guess Im really naive about how much anti-Semitism there is. When I ego-surf the comments under the trailer theres so much stuff about what a dirty kike I am. And Im not Jewish.

I was gonna say: Wikipedia definitely conveys the fact that you were raised Catholic. Theyre just making the incorrect assumption because your name has Gold in it?

Yeah. Im willing to become a Jew, but its just really funny.

J.M.: Right when the trailer first came out they were calling us dirty Jew bastards. My first name is Joel, OK, thats Hebrew. But Murray is 100 percent Irish. I got a sister thats a nun. I went to Catholic school growing up. Do some research before you start, you know, posting this stuff!

B.G.: You know whats also funny is that this really isnt the world I live in, this movie. This is just a theme I wanted to explore. Im actually fairly happy. I was the one up on the bar last night at Blazing Saddles, dancing with a couple of hot young dudes. They were aping my moves! Aping the mov! es of a 50-year-old.

J.M.: Hes a shrinking violet.

B.G.: I was like, look, man, carpe diem. How many times am I going to have that kind of access? Can I get on the bar?

There are some truly delicious rants in this movie, both from Frank and Roxy. I love the rhythm of those, because youll start out with something almost everybody hates, like texting in the movie theater or whatever, and then it becomes completely absurd. Lets kill everybody who high-fives! Lets kill everybody who says punk rock! Which spoke to my personal animus, by the way.

J.M.: Right. I try to call her on it when she says we should kill NASCAR fans. What?

Yeah. Thats, like, 40 percent of the United States population.

B.G.: I think the punk rock thing is about doing a lot of radio. Ill be on what they call an alternative rock station and this guy is giving me attitude and I want to say, Dude, I opened for Nirvana and actually roadied for the Ramones when they were in central New York, the original Ramones. Dont talk to me about punk rock, you fucking prick.

I sympathize, its the diminishment of discourse. Terms stop meaning anything, you know? You didnt even bring up the word hipster. Lets shoot everyone who uses that word, positively or negatively.

It means nothing. Its like the new version of yuppie. In the 80s, everyone, including me, was always bashing yuppies, and now its hipsters that everyones decided they dont like.

Some people think its just me writing a list of what I like and what I dont like. Today, people find a bond because they hate the same things. Or like all of us, because somebodys listening to them. But Frank has a moral code, which is that he wants to kill people who are mean to him. It sounds trivial but that was the point.

J.M.: I could definitely relate to Frank and the people he had problems with. And then Roxy enters and bring! s this w hole Pandoras box of people she wants to kill. It was a great contrast of her, with all the energy, and me being very low-key. I tried to become paternal, to say, No, you cant do that. People who really deserve to die and not just anybody.

Im glad that you pulled her back on her plan to kill Diablo Cody. I dont know that youre going to be on her Christmas list this year. Maybe she has enough of a sense of humor, Im not sure. You know that people are going to say that Roxy seems like a Diablo Cody character, right? Thats part of the joke?

B.G.: Of course. Another movie thats often brought up, and its not a movie that Im a fan of, is Heathers. So when I wrote Worlds Greatest Dad someone said, This script is like Heathers, so then I just named the Goth girl Heather. I just ran into it. Someone else said its a little bit like Wes Anderson, so the principal is W. Anderson. So, clearly, Roxy speaks like a Diablo Cody character. I thought that was funny. It was originally one line, because my daughter is really funny and people say, Youre like Juno, and she said, Dad, whenever people say that I want to stab them right in the fucking throat. And then, when it was pointed out that I should remove that line, I went back and added an entire page of dialogue about it. Whatever you tell me to do, I dont do it.

I have to admit that I dont watch the kind of TV shows you parody here, so its impossible for me to gauge how far you went.

Oh, I didnt parody it at all, I just refilmed it.

Thats all real stuff? The girls throwing used tampons at each other?

Yeah, and a lot of the stuff the political pundits are saying are really paraphrased or not even paraphrased. My first exposure to Glenn Beck was when I was flipping around the channels and he had Obama with a Hitler mustache next to Stalin, and I was like, what is this guy? All those shows are real and I just reshot the footage. Even the ringtone commercial with a pig t! hat come s out and farts. OK, its an elephant, not a pig. But the animation is exactly the same animation. I took it really personally, it really hurt my feelings. The elephant sticks his ass to the camera and makes a farting noise, and its the funniest ringtone.

Were you consciously thinking about the question of audience sympathy for Joels character, and how complicated that gets? Because Frank seems like a likable guy. Hes not a creep, and hes going through a hard time, and then he starts doing stuff that from any standard is not defensible. And, as an audience member, youre sort of stuck with him.

I like the idea that you empathize with this guy and hes doing these horrible things. So then hopefully, if its working for the movie, youre uncomfortable with the fact that youre empathizing with this guy who is doing horrible things. Thats the point. I didnt want to make this vigilante movie where you cheered along with the guy. Thats not the movie, and thats not what I had any interest in doing. Whats cool about Joel is hes a fabulous actor but hes great at playing people who you empathize with, who you care for, but hes not pathetic. I dont like that. That would have been bad; the wrong actor would have screwed it up and made a gross movie.

We have to quit, but I wanted to ask you about maybe the most hilarious and painful thing in the movie. Thats the character named Steven Clark, who performs Theme From Mahogany on a show called American Superstar and becomes a kind of celebrity for being talentless and terrible. I assume that was based on a really similar case in real life, right?

Right. Its loosely based on my dealings with William Hung when I was directing the Jimmy Kimmel show. This other director was shooting a piece with him and said, Hes such a pain in the ass! I go, Come on! And I go down there and his mothers saying, We dont want William saying that. And William Hung is like, This is bullshit. Im William Hung!

Even Willia! m Hung t urned out to be a diva after all.

Well, I realized that everybody gets corrupted. No one is mentally ready for fame, including myself.

God Bless America opens this week in Chicago, Houston, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, New York, Northampton, Mass., Orlando, Philadelphia, Phoenix and San Francisco; May 18 in Atlanta, Boston, New Orleans, Portland, Ore., and Salem, Mass.; May 25 in Austin, Texas, Charlotte, N.C., Columbus, Ohio, Dallas, Gloucester, Mass., Mobile, Ala., Palm Springs, Calif., Peoria, Ill., and Pittsburgh, with more cities to follow. Its also available on-demand through many cable and satellite providers.